The Cardinal Chronicles

Interview with Sonia Lieberman (b. 1933)            

By Anderson Kitzis and Becker Husbands, on January 25, 2026

 

I just want to know exactly what do you want to know. What is your questions? So usually how it works is it starts out with.. 10 to 15 minutes of just you talking about whatever you want us to know and what you want…. 
What do you wanna know?….
Is that from history?… Just kind of your life story…That's a holocaust program. 
I think that's a.. super unique and interesting thing. But… don't know if you're…fully willing to talk about it because I know it's.. a hard topic. Well, that's okay. 
They have to tell this… 
Because very few people survive…that is here in Portland… 30 survivors, now it's maybe about 5 left. So you know, no one lives forever…
So whatever you're willing to talk about.. If you want to start out. So let's talk about history. That’s for your history or for just a story of elderly people? I think just start off.. with everything…Where you grew up…how you got to Portland. I speak a lot to high school and juniors in high school… but there is a program, you know, they want to know the childhood, they want to know the evils…then whatever follows. Just kind of three portions…because it's three different entities happened at the same time.... 

 

Well, anyway, my name is Sonia Lieberman.
I was born in a little town in Europe. Kletsk....Eastern Europe. It's on the border of Russia. Today, the state does not exist anymore. 
It used to be Poland. Now it's, then after World War II, i was... 
part Ukraine and part Belarusian. Now… it became white Russia. So that doesn't belong to Russia anymore, but it's an independent country, but it's not Poland. 
So that's two different things. In effect, when I applied for a passport to travel.. to travel to Europe, and I wrote my name of my city Kletsk, they called me..no, they wrote me a letter, a month afterword and said, “This kind of country doesn't exist anymore, so you were not born.” 
But anyway, I did explain [to] them and they, they finally realized that that ….
So the country doesn't exist anymore.

 

It used to be a very lively city in Poland, and we had a very good portion of the people Jewish. That was, like, 15,000, and it was, like, 8,000 Jewish people, and the rest was, 5,000 was different..original people. They were the Tatars and they were Cossacks, and there was other people who lived there, a lot. Now, of course, it’s different. 
In…1938, Russia invaded this part of the Europe and stayed there until…1940. In 1940 Germany, occupied this place. So this place, you know, was not... What can I tell you? 
You woke up and you have a different country. It was very difficult for children. I was 7 year old, and I was in first grade, finishing, and suddenly, Germany.. came in 1940, and I got right away different rules in different..different laws. 

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First thing they closed up all the schools, that was the first thing to do. And you know, when you close up the school, you take away from people part of their life. And that becomes a very…then they closed up the newspaper. 
And they closed up the newspaper, because they didn't…[want] people to know to read what goes on in the war. Then later on, they closed up the libraries. And all the other… but every city has, like, sports, swimming pools, recreation, it was, everything was done. 
There was no more, nothing, absolutely nothing, and you were supposed to register everything, and it was very scary. And right away we become like refugees because they transferred us from one site to another site. They want to populate the... some parts of Poland, [where] they didn't have enough people. 
And, you know, uprooting, and then started to be very, belligerent towards people who were not the same Catholic or Judeo Christian belief.. that right away they started to eliminate all the people who were mentally sick. And they really eliminated them. It was very cruel and and unhuman. 
Then they…orphanages…They didn't believe in orphanages, and they also disposed of the kids who was in orphanage. People lost their jobs. 
They took over their property, homes, and settled their soldiers in the homes of private people. So, which means if you had a house, and you had a house, and I had a house, it doesn't matter how many people, they brought you in one place. 
They want to have complete legal rights about your life, what to do with you…Usually men over 17, young men, was taken away to concentration camp, to work in for Germans. 
They were building a lot of ammunition, because they were fighting Russia, and they would attack England and other countries, and they start to invade more and more, and that came in 1941, it already came to… they want to invade Great Britain.

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And then, suddenly, they ask United States to join, but United States people did not want to join the World War II. They just believe that it's the ocean will separate, and nothing will happen to the United States. 
But unfortunately, they went and they bombed the...Pearl Harbor. And, you know, the famous  submarine, which they destroyed, and they destroyed everything, and unexpectedly, the United States did not expect, that they will come - the Japanese, and they completely destroy, you know, Hawaii, part of Hawaii. And I don't know. Have you ever been to Hawaii? 
Did you went to see this famous boat? Virginia? No, I haven't. 
You know, there was like 3000 Marines, was in the… and all of them were killed. Wow. That was very bad..

 

Well, my life changed completely. 
I had an older sister. She was older than me, then, by ten years, and I had a brother, and he was older than five years from me, so I was the youngest one. And we were put in a, it was like a, I don't know, a ghetto, you don't know what is ghetto. Ghetto, which means they put certain amount of people in one place, and it's,  barbed wire all around, you know, just like now they do with refugees. 
And you were not allowed to go out or go in, only when you had permission, and the gate was only open like 6 o'clock in the morning, when they took the people for work, to factories, build.., submarine, build everything what the war needed.. What the soldier needed. We were not able to go to school. 
We were forbidden to buy food on a certain time of day..They gave you, like, let's say, from 4 to 5 afternoon that you were able to go to the store to buy some supplies. But it was ration to everything. 
You cannot buy two loaves of bread. You could buy only one loaf of bread, and so on. And then they started more and more rules and regulation, and unfortunately, they started to take away all the younger men from 15 year old and up. 
And that was not a choice. 

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You know, ...shooting was daily life, and they did not feel sorry or didn't sleep nights when they killed young people. That was their aim. If you are not doing whatever you are told. 
And a lot of people want to demonstrate, they want to have freedom as they held before, and they paid for their lives. However, the worst part was for Jewish people, and gypsies, and mentally sick people, and in hospitals like this, that was the cruelest rules for them, was this very cruel rules. If you do any, if you don't step the right way, any place, you got shot without even telling you, stand or do something. 


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And started economically, started to be very bad, people were hungry. But everything was Russian, and you hardly saw a young man in the city. They took away all the young men 15 and up, and you could not do nothing about it. 
So, in 1941, [it] started to be even worse. They started to build concentration camps. And the concentration camps, unfortunately, we all have to work. 
It doesn't matter, even, from 7 year old and up everybody have to work. And it started eliminating people, and we didn't know what they do with the people. They just came, took, and disappeared. 
Just like you hear now, sometimes what happened in other countries, like El Salvador or Panama, whatever, that they arrest somebody, and nobody knows where they are. 

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We didn't have no rights. And German soldier.. there was German troop. 
I don't know how to compare them, but they were a special section of soldiers, but they were trained to kill and to enslave and to kill. I was, I am Jewish. So, I was discriminated and everything. 
My sister was discriminated, my brother, everybody worse than anything. However, the homosexuals were treated unhumanly. And there was no such thing, even transgenders, and all of them, they have no rights. 
Dogs had more rights than the people. And we were under stress all the time. They took over radios. 
You didn't have no radio. You didn't have no post office, you didn't have no mail, you didn't have no newspaper. So you were isolated. 
Schools were closed, university was closed. Higher education was not known anymore. Parks was empty. 
And the creation, so it was fear. People lived in fear all the time, fear, because the Gestapo, There was the top of the top soldiers, with Nazis, and Hitler train them to be no mercy. No mercy. 
And it started in 1942, they round up, people, and they disappeared, and nobody knew where they go and were gone. 

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My father was involved in economics in business, and we had friends, and those friends - he was a teacher in our town, but he lost his job because…the schools were closed. He was a very good friend of my father. 
Both of them were the same age, and they also had a little boy my age. So we were really close by, and he was a principal in our town. And he didn't have no more jobs, so he went to a farm. 
His wife was a farmer's daughter. There was a big farm outside city, like, maybe five hour driving or something. And they... came to visit us. 
When they moved us to a... to a place, which is my aunt, had a bigger house. They took over our house, and put us in my aunt's house. So, they were five people, and we were five people, ten people, in two bedrooms. 
And there was no complaint. You complain, you get shot. He came to visit us, and he brought some supplies from his farm. 
And then he suggested to my parents that he want to take all three of us to his farm, which was, like, several hours. There was no car, so it was horses and buggies, but several hours driving in horses, and he took us to his farm. And it was wonderful. 
It was isolated in the forest, far away. The German didn't come there to bother, only once in a while. And we had a wonderful summer there with it, all three of us. 


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But then one day, my brother and sister told me that they are leaving me there staying, and they are going back to the city, and I was crying, begging them to take me along, because I missed my mother, I missed my father. They said, no, that you cannot come with us because we have to go through rivers, we have to go through forest, not to encounter Germans. We know the way and you will be a distraction. 
And you don't want us to get killed because you, you are a child, and you won't be able to walk. And they left me there. And they left. I never see them again. 
I never saw them again, because they can't... After a week, when they left, and the reason why they left, because they want to go home before the High Holidays. Like Rosh Hashana, and Yom Kippur and so on. 
They didn't want to stay there. They want to go home for the parents and they were older than me. If I was 7, my sister was 16. 
So, and my brother was 14, so they were able to walk distances. 

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And I stayed there for a while, and then one day, I called her Aunt Alexandra because she was already an older lady, and she called me, and she said she has something very bad to tell me. And I says, "What could be bad?"
And she says, "Unfortunately, as of yesterday, you're an orphan." And I says, "What does it mean to be orphan?" She says, "It means to be orphaned. Unfortunately, we got to know that your father and your mother, and your sister, and your brother, all of them were chosen to go to a certain place, in the ravine, and they gathered 4000 Jewish children, and families, and they slaughtered all of them." And then one day, he says, your parents and your, and your grandma and your grandfather, all of them were in the same place, and you don't have no one, and we don't know what to do with you now, because the order is, if somebody hides a child or any, anyone who is not German, they will kill the whole family. And they told me, now they have to find a hiding place for you, because you cannot be free to run around, as usual, because if the German will come to inspect and see you, they will kill us all because of you. So, I remember, I said, Auntie Alexandra, so you're going to kill me, too. 
She says, not me, the Germans, but we are going to do everything in our power to save you. And maybe, maybe, when the war will finish, and the Germans will lose and the Allies will overcome, you know, and the United States will join the war, and all the others, England, and all others, maybe then, we will find some relatives or someone of you. 

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Unfortunately, it lasted almost five years, the war, and it was not easy. 
It was, I was not allowed to be outside during the day. I was only allowed to come from, and they hid, they hid me in a barn, they built a little place there, and they put me to sleep there because they were afraid to keep me in their own home. And the life started to be very dark and mean and cruel. 
And then I become eight year old, and then I become nine year old, and 10 year old, and, you know, you cannot... You cannot, uh, the night from a 10 year old would happen. A 10 year old child knows to ask questions and the meant answers. 
And they didn't have no answers. 

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The war was going on. And the fear of people was tremendous, people who were afraid, terrified, because if they will step any step, it doesn't matter who they are, that was a bullet. 
And so the people was, all the time on the... And it's lasted for a long time, they stayed almost five years, the war, until finally, finally, you know, you hear all the, all the, D-day of the Normandy, and we had here a man who served in the battalion, American, you know, soldier, with British, to conquer the Normandy. And he was tremendous - inspiration here by telling stories how they were fighting the war, finally, and he was knowledgeable man and... 
So he was, like my friend, he was telling me, and I was this…

 

And... The war went on, and people got, you know, people, one day are under arrest at home. Curfew was every day for four years from sunset to sunrise. That was the curfew. And you would not dare, and some youngster got killed for nothing, because they just was playing around, maybe a ball or football, or went to the park, because you were not allowed to. Curfew was curfew. 
They shoot first and ask question later. It was very cruel, and the war finally, in 1945, in May, we were liberated from Germany. And it was broken life. 
I already was already 5 and 7...I was already 12 and a half year old. I already knew what goes on. 
You could not, you could fool a child, but you cannot fool a teenager. And we knew it, the war finished, but the chaos still went on. Even the war finished, but people were displaced. 
They didn't have homes. Their homes were taken away, the business was closed up. 

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And I'm sure that you hear, about Kristallnacht. 
That's when the Germans broke all the windows and displays of of businesses, and it was such a tremendous impact that 100 kilometers from the place, the homes were shaking from this kind of destruction, and that's what they call the Kristallnacht. And they took away all the paintings. Still. Would you believe it or not? 
Finally, now, there was a movie they made about the lady's gold, the golden, the golden necklace, the golden lady. And still people are fighting, now already, not the original, but their grandchildren, fighting for the right to get their arts back. And we know a lot of people here in Portland, but they are still fighting for the, uh what was very expensive art. They took away all the art from Louvre. 
They took away from museum. They took away everything. 

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And after the war, people were displaced, and they were just, like, lost sheep in some wilderness. 
They didn't know where to go. They didn't have, they didn't know their relatives alive, they didn't know if their family survived, and I am sure. I am, I think so, you know, but the, the liberation of the camp, like the whole Auschwitz. 
The most famous was the Auschwitz, because Anne Frank was there.. Did you read the book? Anne Frank was killed one month  before they were liberation. 
That was such a tragedy, that one, and also my part of my family, were killed two weeks before the liberation. 

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Then, you know, that it started, people started to build their own lives. It was not...After the war the people started... 
I don't know where they took energy. But they did this for their children, who survived. Because hospitals, everything was closed up. 
So if you're sick, just any little sickness, you die, if you don't have no medication, no vaccination. And after the war it was very difficult because people did not have transportation, everything was broken, everything was in ruins. 
The city was destroyed, the water supply was destroyed, the electricity was destroyed, so... They lived, like, in... like, in wild, maybe… stone life, but because that's what they didn't have. 

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But little by little, people started to come back to their homes, and they started to search for their families. 
Some of them did find them after two or three years, finally. And, uh…, we, became older. We already were but 14 year old, and we started, started schools back. 
But everybody lost 5 years of schooling. You imagine when you are in junior high and you lose 5 years of your studying. 
It's, now you are already 15 or 16 and you are, you're supposed to almost finish high school. And there is now, there is a gap in your life. You say, what happened? 
Where is the, how I am going to keep up now and do what I lost for five years? It was no school. It was nothing. 
And, but little by little, parents started to be teachers, those who were in profession teachers, started to build up and start to have schools, but it took so long time, because everything was destroyed. And finally, we started to be a human being again. We had already back our country, and they started to build up, but not those poor children who lost everybody, and didn't have no one. 
That was the biggest thing. 

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I was lucky that it's a Polish family, I'm still in touch with them. 
And the original, oh, we called him Uncle Kazimierz, he died at the age of 98 or 99, but his son, who was my age, is still here. We communicate. We went to see them. 
And we are in touch, and we call ourselves like a family, because that's the only family I knew for five years. And they, they always did everything in power to save me. Because there were times that they have to change my hiding place three, four times in one month. 
And they always find some place, somehow, to put me, but not to, they just decided, they are not going to let me die too, the only one left from the family. They were very nice people, but they were very good friends of our family. And life started, I was with them until 1949…

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In 1949 came Jewish organization, from United States, and they called them… it's refugees…you know, they, very active still, the highest there… refugees, and especially now then, uh, what goes on here. They are the one who are the front to protect the immigrant people. The refugees who came to live here to find something, you know, why do you think they're coming here? 
Because they want to, you know, earn a decent living and help their own families. And anyway, so we are almost the same thing. I am very painfully to see what they are doing with people, refugees, because I was a refugee. 
I know what this mean, you are the lowest of the lowest. They could do whatever they want with you. And after the war finished, the life started to be a little bit better. 
People went back to their farms and started to plow and started to, whoever has survived. I still was with the family. The name is Tobolski (sp?), and my uncle name is Kazimierz , and aunt is Alexandra, and now they live in Poland, by the Baltic Sea, we are in communication, and visited each other. 
And they have also. I am 92, he is 92. So they are communicating still, and I always be grateful to them, because if not them, I would not be here. 

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But the life was very difficult. 
So what happened later, in 1946, came, some organization in get us all us orphaned kids, because they added over 200 orphan kids with left over from the war. And they decide, and they told us that they are going to take us in a train, to a foreign country. They didn't tell us where and what, they just told us what we should do, how we should behave, and they brought us to a rail station, and they put us in the place there, and they told us not to say nothing. 
We didn't have our names. My original name was Shayndl Sonya, Shayna Sonya, but that I had my name, and during the war became..Zosia, and Tatiana, so that's completely different paper, and they told us we should never answer no one, we just should stay in the bedroom. And then they brought us to Czechoslovakia. 
In 1946... And they brought us to Czechoslovakia and they put us, you know, came for... a young man who was practicing football - soccer. And that was a big camp, and we were there, we were 120 kids, ranging 5 year old, to 18 year old. 
And then, they brought us to Czechoslovakia, but the Czechoslovakia government decided that...cannot afford to have foreign kids to feed them. And so they brought us to Yugoslavia. I don't know if you know where it is, the map, Yugoslavia. It's just by the Italy and this. So we stayed there, then the government did not want us either there. So from there, they took us to Geneva, to Switzerland. 
We stayed there for a while, and they didn't want us either. So they took us all the way to, finally, France agreed to take us in. So that the only country, which was fighting Germans fearlessly. The government took us 200 refugee kids, aging 5 year, 4 year old to 15 or 16. 
So we came to France and then they put us in a... It was a hotel they made an orphanage home. 
So there were two orphanage homes - there were grown ups, and children like us. 

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And we stayed there until 1948, September. In 1948, in May, the state of Israel was born. 
Declared as independent, and once it's born, they were able to take us legally. So 1948, they put us on a boat. And I am sure you know the boat name, Exodus. 
There was so many movies about it, and that was in Marseilles, in the port, and they were supposed to take us to Israel, but then came, some, uh, they were danger that this British don't want, won’t let us to come into Israel. So they took us off from the boat, and brought us back to the orphanage home. And we stayed there. 
And meantime, the boat went only with people 16 year old and up. And that was the boat, what they were fighting, but the English made a barricade, and they would not let them to land in Israel, and they fight, they had an awful fight. The young men rebelled against the British and it was tragic. 


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Anyway, some of them this, so they in 1948, in May, state of Israel was, created by the vote of United Nation, and it was independent, and then they decided that they are going to take us, but not right away, because fighting still goes on there, and there only in September 1948 brought us to Israel. So Israel was one month old as an independent country. 
And there's, well, now you have to learn a new language. We did not speak Hebrew, we did not speak Arabic. So we were lost again, because we spoke different languages, Polish, Russian, but not this languages. 
So the first thing, what they did. I don't know if you know what is kibbutz. .... 


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You know, what is kibbutz - kibbutz is a people dedicated to live in a farm and work in a farm and equally, you could be millionaire, but you're no millionaire, because everything is yours is mine, mine is yours. Equal rights. And if you are a musician, you go to conservatory and will learn. If you are medically acquainted, you go to medical school. The community supports. 
They decide exactly. And they have the farm, they have the authority to grow things and kibbutz - very few left now in Israel, very few, but it used to be very, you know, we still have kibbutzim..you go on a Birthright. Did you hear that Birthright means every boy and girl, until the age of 26 is welcome to come…..They give you free or full, you don't pay nothing, and you spend two weeks in Israel, and then you decide what you want to do, you know.

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But then when we came to Israel, it was not easy. 
We have to learn a foreign language. And foreign places, and we were in a kibbutz, and then they decided that we are already 16 year old, and we have to be trained as soldiers. So I was serving two and a half years in military…from 17 to 19. Everybody, girl and boys, they have to.. it’s no problem. 
People who, you know, if God forbid some boy or girl was not accepted to come to the military, it was tragedy for them because everybody goes. You know, once you are 16, you, you are, you are, uh, drawn and make to come and you serve in. We did not have no combat, we were not trained for it, but we were trained to first responders. 
Some of us were technicians, some of them, we chose a group of us, we chose to be in nursing. So English had a big system of schools and universities, and we all were in the role and studied to be nursing. And some of them wanna be suppliers. 
Some of them want to be engineers, you know, whatever they, that in the two years, what you're in army, you study. You study a profession, so when you finish, the, your military, you either you're in the role, stay longer, or you don't want it. And it was wonderful. 
We were very independent there, and we had some schooling because don't forget, you lost 5 years of schooling, and you have to. Well, you would think that people give up. No, people don't give up. 
I didn't give up. I said, I want to finish high school. I don't care if I'm 17 or 18 or 19. 
But it was not easy. 

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Meantime, I met a soldier there, who was from Czechoslovakia. And then, after I finished my military duty, we married, and we had my son, Gary. 
And then we had my son, Adi, and my daughter, Ruthie. Anyway, however, Ruthie was born here. So we, but the schooling, I never give up, and I said to everybody, if you really want it, it's not a dream. 
You will hear. I said, if I could finish five year lost studying in two years and get all the results to finish high school, you imagine what does it mean to be an 18 year old and finish high school, that was the greatest achievement in your life. Well, we have to do this. 
I have to do this. Then I said, it's not enough. I want to go to college. 
And I want to be a teacher. Because I didn't like to be a nurse. And I finished everything that I had already. 
I was a mother of two kids. 

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And then I came to United States. And then, we decided to come to United States, because our family insisted we'd come and try at least one year to be here. 
And we came in, then we went back because we could not fit into the new society again. But then we came back, and we settled down. And since 1960, we are here. So I, then we came to United States, the first thing I went to City College in Los Angeles, and enrolled in school. 
I was already 30 year old, and I was sitting with students who were 19 year old, like, they used to call me Mama. Could I come to study with you? You know? 
And I, we finished. I finished college, and I got degree of my teacher's credential. Then I took my master's degree in world history and literature. 
So I, for me, I say, if you really want it, I was a mother of three kids, and I work full time, and I finished. It took me longer. People finishing four or five years, it took me eight years, but I finished. And I didn't do this for no one - for myself. 
.... And…we settled down in Los Angeles. That was a very good decision, because we are not used to being cold weather, and the kids were not. And thank God, you know, I am very proud with my teaching in Los Angeles for 49 years, I taught in a school. 
I taught in junior college, city college. I taught social study, home economics. You don't have home economics. In those days, in 70s, you had home economics. Boys worked in shops, learn how to repair a car, how to build. Girls had sewing and cooking. 
And this, I'm very proud that I was able to do it, but with the help of my husband and my kids. So when my daughter was six year old, I got my master's degree, and that was my achievement of my life. But didn't... it didn't come easy. 
But I want you to know that rewards are great. So if some people tell you a story that the parents…I mean, children not listening to parents, I mean. And, really, it was, uh, something to look forward and see it. 
And that doesn't matter what you want to be a pilot, or you want to be a, uh, engineer, or you want to be, well, whoever you want to be. If you really want it, if you really dedicate yourself, you will do it. 
And that has nothing to do with smartness, it has nothing to do with richness, it's because of you, perseverance. And it's very easy to give up.

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But we had to say, listen, even during the war, you had some, sometimes, a light comes in. I remember one time, we were a group of kids walking around, looking for food, and we saw, a train was bumped by Russians, who infiltrated to Germany, and blew up the station. 
So the train, what was supposed to go all the way to Russia to support German soldiers, was damaged. We kids went, a group of us. I don't remember how many, but a big group. 
And we said, we are so hungry, maybe the train was bringing food for German soldier. So maybe we will find the food. And we went all of them to this station, and we start to go in the broken wagons, and we saw a big box. 
So me and two boys and another girl, which I'm still in, they are my friends and I'm still in contact with them. One lives in Los Angeles and two in Israel. And we took a big box, and we was dragging this through the fields, and then we decide to open the box, and we started to imagine whether there is bread and cheese and butter, and we will be feasting, not hungry. 
You wouldn't believe it what we find it. A whole box of accordions. That was tragedy. 
We just sat and cried. We're here, we drag for several miles, the big box because we were sure there is food. And finally when they, some people help us to open the box, the wooden box, there was accordions. 
So they were supplying accordions to the German soldiers in Russia. who took over the, and this, that's how we survived. 

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So we was like, 7,  just kids who went, well, we had forests, so during the summer, we had some fruits in the forest, like blueberries, strawberries, or whatever, there was, but it was tough lives, but we survived, and we did. And there was a lot that, a lot of stories like this happened. That we met one time, uh, during the war, still maybe, maybe half a year before the war is finished, we met, an Austrian soldier. 
He was, we thought he was very old, because he probably was 30, and we were 12 or 13. So to us, they were, and he was nice to us. He gave us bread. 
He gave us loaves of bread and says, run and hide. And he told us I remember, he said, I don't want to be here, but I was drafted. So, stories goes on. 


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There is very few Holocaust survivors left. And if they're not going to tell their story, it will get lost. 
But most of us already recorded our stories. And life is beautiful, and you don't neglect your life. And you try to do the best, you have friends, you created. To be an orphan is not fun. 
Believe me, it's not fun. However, you learn how to - not to argue, and not to blame. And you learn a lot how to discipline yourself, and achieve your goal, what you want to be. And I hope and pray, that all of you, such beautiful kids, that I got to know here, of you, many of you, and you should achieve the highest, what you can climb as, climb as high as you can, and don't give in. 
 Just do whatever you like. If you want to be, I don't care who you want to be. 
You want to be a housewife, that's fine. There's a lot of homes but fathers take care of the house, and the mother works and supports the home. That's fine. 
And doesn't matter what, but please don't, don't be a hero. If you think it's danger, don't go there. Be careful, and it's very important to have social life.

 

And I know that you have social life. I am sure you are using your life, sports. What kind of sports are you? 
We both play tennis, and then a little, like, recreational basketball. Basketball, because my brother, let him rest in peace, with soccer. In Europe, was soccer already a thousand years ago. 
And they played. He was a good soccer player. That's what I was told. 
And here I am. ...I would, if you would tell me, in 1960, that I will be in Portland, I would say you're crazy. Or in the United States, you know? 
Because United States represented heaven. Everybody was dreaming, but United States, if I will only be in United States, I will be the happiest one in the world. 
That was the notion of people after the war. And a lot of people came. It's no question about it if they could come. 
And what goes on today? That's not your fault. But with your help, the governments are changing, will change, and you will be in power. 
You will be the representative. You are going to lead the country. Who knows? 
Maybe you're going to be a president. Maybe you are going to be vice president. Depends how tough you are. And... I hope that you have some... notion who are the presidents who give some good for the United States, and I hope you know them, and you will remember them. 
The old… that Abraham Lincoln was the man of letting the slave to become free. He did something very noble. And since then, it's got better and better. It will get better now. 


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How much are you involved in school? Are you talking about, like, politics? 
No, just social events like sports. Like maybe you have some classes like they study French, so they do, as the French people do, or maybe you are from South Pacific, something, you know, it's very interesting. Maybe you want to be a newsman, an investigator to bring up the best. You are the best, and you are representing now. 
You know, someday, and other people will have to look up to you. And you are going to be the leaders. If you want or not, because I, you're going to have a family, you are going to be productive, and I only pray that you will stay away from danger. 
Don't put in your body nothing dangerous, don't get involved in danger. 

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Do you belong to any clubs? ..., We both are at the athletic club, the Multnomah Athletic Club. 
.... We both.. started the club about…what we're doing now is part of the club for …interviewing people about their life. 
And we've…connected with a lot of people. No, life is, you know, history is a story of people… If you think about it, that's all about. 
That's what people tell the stories, from of a 100 years ago and 80 years ago. And that stays in, you are going to tell stories. ..., .... 
And there is, you know, people who came to the United States, with little [on their] back only, and they were dreaming for better life. And at the end, they were successful. I bet you that your grandparents or great grandparents who came from someplace.

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Where is your great grandparents came? They have to come from someplace. I think they're from…Germany… Europe. You know while Germans was, German people who came to the United States, they brought in emancipation. 
They brought in art, they brought in music. They brought in very important things to people's private life. .... 
Because they are the one. They are the one who emancipated people in…19th century. They are the one who gave, that's what was the whole idea, how could Hitler come to be a Hitler, when Germany was such an enlightened country of music, art, movies, science, everything, and how come they become so cruel? 
We are studying today too. What made them to be so cruel? To have power, to be. 
And that's, that's the one, that's the story.

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So, and do you know from where your great, great, great parents are? My great, great, great grandparents are from Japan. 
From Japan. Well, you know, look at Japan. America used to be in war with Japan. 
And now they're the best friend in Japan. .... So, What happened? 
Compromising. Compromising is the only way that you could survive. And Japan was, the leadership was smart and said, hey, whatever they did before, they don't belong anymore here. 
We want a freedom. And have you been in Japan? I have not been to Japan. 
No, I think I'm going to be visiting there soon though. .... Do you have any relatives there? 
No, my grandma grew up in Hawaii, so they immigrated to Hawaii. So, like, Japanese Hawaii. Japanese Hawaii. 
You know? A lot of countries suffered a lot…in the South Pacific. They suffered a lot from Germany, what they did. 
But thank God that finally, Russia, and England, and others decided that, you know, we had…. protesting, and a lot of people who devoted their lives to bring peace to this world. And it's going to be again. 

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And that's the story of our people. 
.... You know, when you see sometimes a movie, for instance, the movie, South, what was the South Pacific movie, what talent. But people, how native it got, was supposed to get married with a native from America, and the parents did not let it. [like] Romeo and Juliet? 
Yes. And there is a lot of the movies made up of it and a lot of interesting things. You are now in a time that technology changes so fast that the people who created technology don't know how to explain even. 
You know, they create like a monster, and some people - and even they cannot explain how to do this. They struggle. 

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You are in a beautiful time of life. 
So use it. And I hope and pray you will be healthy in your mind and your body, and you will be achieving whatever you want. And don't ever afraid start your things when you are older. 
Doesn't mean you have to do everything when you're 18. It's never too late. There was a very wise man, Dr. Herzl, he said, if you wanted to, it's not a dream. 
It's not a legend. You could achieve it. Maybe not everything, but something. 
Whatever you are.

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And I want to thank you, if you have any questions to ask, please do otherwise. I was wondering…they've been teaching a lot about the Holocaust in school and everything, and we know the general idea, but what… have you heard about what we've been learning? And I was wondering… your experience and how that was different? Like what part of that you'd like to share? Don't forget when the teacher teach you Holocaust they were not there… And unless God forbid you were there, and you survived, you know what this mean. 
You develop completely different needs. For instance, to me, money doesn't play. Money, doesn't… as long as I work, and I'm honest, and I work, and I earn a living, that's all that I want. 
However, I am a rebel when it comes to injustice. I was a rebel, and I was punished for it very badly, many times beaten up and thrown out, but I always say, Why? Why are you doing what you are doing? 
I was never afraid. .... And I say….don't ever be afraid to ask questions. 
However, be careful with whom you are talking to.. You know…some crazy guy …that has different ideas, and you know, you cannot change his mind. 
You could only help so much. And did I have basic necessity of Judaism? No, because I was more out of Judaism than I was in Judaism. 
However, the nice people, what I was with them, and they…you  know, it's very difficult to explain when I'm talking this, what does mean a family holds a child, which they know, if some, if the German will know, they will shoot the whole family. The whole, they will put in the marketplace or whatever they're in the central, and they will gather all the people to see it, and they will say, they chose to hide a gypsy. Because they were killing all of them. 
Gypsies was the first one to go. And that came out, a beautiful story after the war, and I have to share this with you. 


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He was a big professor, Kochanski. And he said…when the Nazis came after mental sick people in hospitals and they burned them alive. 
Well, I was not mentally sick, so I was not worried. When they came and took the orphans, and they destroyed them. 
Well, I'm not an orphan, and my kid's not an orphan, so why should I worry about it? Then when they came, the Nazis came and took all the professors and all the teachers and sent them to concentration camp to learn to be Germans. Well, I am not a professor, 
I'm not a teacher, so why should I worry? And then they came for Jewish people. Well, I'm not Jewish. 
So should I worry? No. They took them. 
But then they came after me. And there was no one to ask, why? That was a very special man. 
His name was Kochanski. He is the one doctor. He was not a Jewish, but he, in Ghetto, stayed with the kids because he was a very known children's doctor. 
And when they took away the kids, the little kids, the concentration camp to burn them in the ovens, he stood up for it, but they didn't kill him because they want him, they put him in concentration camp. And then when he survived, he was writing and he, that's what he's writing - we all memorized. 
He said that when they came for everybody, I was not worried. It's not me. But then they came for me, and there was no one to protect me. 
So that, you know.. that was the times. 

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But…we survived. And we became productive, we became good citizen, and we…wanted our country should bloom. 
It doesn't matter if there’s problem in United States. United States..was always a heaven. People who went to United States, the whole village went to the boat to see them going away. And everybody was jealous, believe me. 
Oh, my gosh, he's going to United States. Everything is going to be okay. 

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But that is not okay for everybody in United States. 
There is plenty people hungry, and many people. I am a socialist. I am social person. 
I will fight for everybody. I'm not afraid. I never was afraid to stood up and say, no, you did wrong. 
I want you to know, I stood up to John..our chef, years ago, because he did, because some members of my community were not pleased…with a server. And they kind of offended. And I was there, and I made the appointment, and I told him, you better straighten up this… I don't care, what can he do? Sue me? 
.... I am not afraid to. My kids always say, Mom, please be careful. 
You are always. There is a demonstration, but legitimate demonstration. I am there. 
Here, too, I went for all the big demonstration when the first time they was going to elect Trump. We had here in Portland. It's almost 4  years ago, you were younger. 
We were not afraid. I went for the kids who are prosecuted now not to play in sports, because the kids want to dress up like a girl. So what? They are human beings…

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Anyway, I just want to tell you, bless you. With good health, good judgment. And lots of social fun. 
Don't neglect, you have to have fun. And you have to do whatever you like. 
If not come easy convince your parents. You know how. And thank God you are here. And you will be very happy late in your life. .... 
And then Anderson when I see you coming to the dining room. I am so happy to see you. I was always happy to see you. 
Thank you so much for choosing me. Of course. Thank you for sharing your story….
 I hope I am. There is so much, yes. Thank you. 
And yes, if you have any questions later, you could see me in the dining room. I will tell you everything. 
Thank you so much, .... And thank you, sweetheart. Thank you so much. 
Can I hug you guys? ...Of course. And I would like to have a picture. 
Yes, of course. I could show my grandchildren. Thank you so much. 
..., thank you. You know, I have.. children, your age. Our grandma always fighting. 
.... Always fighting…

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